Golfbulldog - I find your description most helpful. I will describe it in my own words and you can decide whether I understand the backstroke action of the hitter/swinger correctly.
The hitter takes the club back from an impact fix alignment and rolls the left arm gradually through the backstroke to an endpoint where the right elbow "feels" fully bent and acts as checkrein to the backstroke action. During this backstroke action, he resists the "carry back" and therefore feels constant pressure at the PP3 point aft of the club. At the top of the backstroke, the back of the left hand is parallel to the inclined plane, and the right forearm is perpendicular to the left arm flying wedge (primary lever assembly). The right elbow is flying slightly and not near-vertical to the ground because it is perpendicular to the inclined plane eg. turned shoulder plane, or an inclined plane which is slightly flatter than the turned shoulder plane.
The swinger takes the club back from the adjusted address position, and allows the club to swivel during the takeaway so that the back of the left hand is already parallel to the inclined plane at the end-takeaway position. The swinger then continues to gradually rotate the left arm/torso to the end-backstroke position. However, the swinger also allows the clubshaft to rotate another 1/4 turn at the end of the backstroke so that the clubshaft falls against the PP3 point (which is slightly more under the clubshaft than behind the clubshaft). This extra 1/4 rotation means that the clubshaft is slightly flatter than a hitter's clubshaft at the top of the backstroke. The right forearm is positioned perpendicular to the clubshaft (secondary lever assembly rather than primary lever assembly) and because the clubshaft lies in a slightly flatter plane, that means that the right forearm must be slightly more vertical (compared to the hitter's right forearm position). The swinger's right forearm position is therefore more conducive to allowing the left arm to pull the grip end of the club down via a longitudinal path in a karate-chop action, while the hitter's right forearm is better positioned to push down on the PP1 point via a radial thrust action in a straight line towards the aiming point.
If my understanding is correct, then the right forearm should appear more vertical in swingers, and less vertical and more parallel to the bent-over spine in hitters. This difference in right forearm alignment should theoretically be demonstrable/discernible in still photos of golfers at the top of their backstroke.
Bagger - if my above description is correct, and you state the right forearm is perpendicular to the loading action, then surely the hitter must be loading against the left arm flying wedge (left arm + clubshaft), while the swinger is only loading against the secondary lever assembly (clubshaft). Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect.
rwh - you wrote-: "This is because the right forearm flying wedge should always be at right angles to the left arm flying wedge. This is going to look the same, Hitting or Swinging." If you are correct, then my understanding is still impaired because my description above doesn't comply with your assertion.
12piece bucket - Regarding those photos, when I look at Hogan's downswing action I can see his right elbow slide to a point in front of his right hip - like a pitch elbow, while the other golfer has his right elbow behind the right hip - like a punch elbow. Hogan also seems to have an extra 1/4 of rotation at the end-backswing, and that gets his clubshaft to become parallel to the ground and his PP3 point to lie under the shaft. Hogan's right forearm at the end-backswing is more vertical suggesting a swinger's loading action. Am I right or wrong?
I think that you get the idea... I am not TGM pure enough to say whether every exact word is correct....but if you see that the right forearm/elbow has to differ to provide mechanical advantage/support for the left arm pull versus the right triceps push.... and then everything else is SECONDARY to that loading action alignment....then you get the key difference...IMO.
You can not push something that is behind you.... but you can pull something that is behind you.... so swingers can go to "end"....but hitters should not unless they want to add compensation....Read the thread where Yoda describes the patterns being used by David Toms and KJ Choi....it is very incisive and shows that they go to END but then rearrange their actions on the downswing for a hitters pattern...very wise words...
So the hitting action (IMO) is experienced with a shorter backstroke /less wrist cock/shaft more vertical at TOP (this is the re-arrangement that Toms and Choi achieve in early downswing).
The one thing I did not get in your description was the bit about "resisting carry back"....but do not get hung up on the words...you really have to feel the forces in their respective manners and then your body will understand.
The hitter backsrtoke has no conscious 'turn to the plane' ...it keeps the clubface more "looking at the ball"...so the blade of clubface stays perpendicular to the inclined plane for longer than a swinger (a bit like the old square to square pattern of the '70s).... in fact most modern teachers probably teach this takeaway...in what they believe is a swingers overall pattern.... but the TGM influenced swinger turns the clubface to the plane using radius and ulnar action....early swivel action that is reversed in their sequenced release on the downswing (think of peoples descriptions of Hogan and his fanning the clubface 'open' (actually turning it to the plane...like Tiger trys/tried to do) and then Hogan kept the clubface turned against the plane for a very long time (probably for most of his shots...ignore the Ballard teaching ) and whilst the clubface is turned to plane on the downswing and you are PULLING...then pp3 remains quarter turned as it was at loading action....so pp3 gives info about lag and clubface...see the video in gallery about "pp3 where are you"...see the pressure point advice in "Modern Fundamentals" and the Hogan video in the gallery about grip and pressure point through impact...i'm sure that you have seen it before but watch it again now that you have read this...
..... the hitter has a slow and simultanteous cock and turn of the left arm on back and downswiing...no independent radius and ulnar action
Homer really wanted the feel of the downstroke to have a similar feel to that to that of the backstroke....not just in programming feel of release but also loading action and release...."snap with snap" etc...for snap loading and snap release....can't remember the reference in the book for this bit.
Hope this helps and not confuse you!
Last edited by golfbulldog : 04-26-2008 at 05:59 AM.
This man drag loaded...his right forearm was aligned perfectly at "end" for pulling and he had had no compensatory movement to get into the "slot" that he is in here...
If he were pushing pp3 and pp1 in a straight line towards ball or aiming point he would not have adopted a right forearm alignment like this.
You can pull much more effectively with this alignment than the hitter's "top" right forearm alignments....
Mind if I come in here,I keep my cluface square to the I/planeline from I/fix to Impact,I was under the impression this is the right way to "HIT"
this way the R/elbow remains in correct position all the way,this also keeps pressure point and acc all in line
Simple and uncomplicated
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