"Exit" Plane. The Plane from Follow Through to Finish
Originally Posted by Yoda
O.B.,
The Plane of the 'exiting' of the golf club from the Follow-Through into the Finish is now all the rage. Is Turned Shoulder right? Is Squared Shoulder wrong?
Much of what is being written or said today concerns using the Body (Pivot / Zone #1) to control the Arms (Power / Zone #2) and Hands (Direction / Zone #3). From the hopelessly over-Plane practice stroke 'chop' I first saw years ago with Corey Pavin to the graceful On Plane exit of Sam Snead, it is an environment where Pivot-Controlled-Hands and Hands-Controlled-Pivot collide. Until this conflict is resolved -- consciously or subconsciously -- Bent Plane Lines and Compensated Strokes are inevitable.
Why not start a new thread for the discussion of same? Contact Bambam if you have any trouble moving any of this stuff over.
What do you guys think about the Plane of Follow Through? Finish? Homer had a clear preference for and an ingenious insight into the Turned Shoulder Plane and its ideal geometry for Startdown. But does this mean it has the same advantage at Finish?
I'd say ..........no. Im thinking that given the Downstroke Sequence of 6-M-1, "swinging from the feet", the Shoulders, the Right Shoulder specifically should pull the Hands Downplane in Startdown. A situation which leads one to deduce that its best for the Hands and the Right Shoulder to therefore be on the same Plane Angle in Startdown. So geometrically the TSP is "the ideal plane" for Startdown. Whereas in Follow Through or Finish the Right Shoulder is no longer pulling the Hands anywhere as the sequence has long since past that stage. Making the determination of ideal Plane Angle subject to different considerations for that part of the swing.
Plane shifting being dangerous, Im thinking that in Follow Through you should, in the ideal anyways, be on the same Plane you travelled through Impact on. In Finish you'd probably have to shift a higher plane angle if you rode through Impact on a low one. You just cant get to Top or Finish on some of the lower planes. Im sort of waxing theoretically and in the ideal here , I know there are plenty of exceptions on the PGA tour.
I dunno. I honestly dont think about plane angle too much personally, it just sort of "is what it is" for me. Normally Single Shift , Elbow then TSP but Im wondering what I exit on? OK, I just looked at video .....TSP exit. Ill have to check some old pre Yoda video to see what my Pivot to Hands swing looked like. Id guess way under plane going back then a lot of lifting then a vertical drop and ........ generally all over the place with a Zoro like sword action. Getting on plane can make such a difference.
What do you guys think about the Plane of Follow Through? Finish? Homer had a clear preference for and an ingenious insight into the Turned Shoulder Plane and its ideal geometry for Startdown. But does this mean it has the same advantage at Finish?
I'd say ..........no. Im thinking that given the Downstroke Sequence of 6-M-1, "swinging from the feet", the Shoulders, the Right Shoulder specifically should pull the Hands Downplane in Startdown. A situation which leads one to deduce that its best for the Hands and the Right Shoulder to therefore be on the same Plane Angle in Startdown. So geometrically the TSP is "the ideal plane" for Startdown. Whereas in Follow Through or Finish the Right Shoulder is no longer pulling the Hands anywhere as the sequence has long since past that stage. Making the determination of ideal Plane Angle subject to different considerations for that part of the swing.
Plane shifting being dangerous, Im thinking that in Follow Through you should, in the ideal anyways, be on the same Plane you travelled through Impact on. In Finish you'd probably have to shift a higher plane angle if you rode through Impact on a low one. You just cant get to Top or Finish on some of the lower planes. Im sort of waxing theoretically and in the ideal here , I know there are plenty of exceptions on the PGA tour.
I dunno. I honestly dont think about plane angle too much personally, it just sort of "is what it is" for me. Normally Single Shift , Elbow then TSP but Im wondering what I exit on? OK, I just looked at video .....TSP exit. Ill have to check some old pre Yoda video to see what my Pivot to Hands swing looked like. Id guess way under plane going back then a lot of lifting then a vertical drop and ........ generally all over the place with a Zoro like sword action. Getting on plane can make such a difference.
If so, are you simply rolling your shoulder and keeping your arms extended. TSP just seems so steep coming down and I snap hook a lot with it. Do you have a wide stance with it? If this is a thread jack just ignore this and I'll keep searching the archives for TSP stuff.
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 12-13-2010 at 12:40 AM.
If so, are you simply rolling your shoulder and keeping your arms extended. TSP just seems so steep coming down and I snap hook a lot with it. Do you have a wide stance with it?
ICT
Level wrists at Address, yes. That sounds like Pivot to Hands you are describing to me maybe ICT. Maybe I miss read it. In the Hands to Pivot startup assuming a TSP for Top you'll see the Hands take a separate Path than the Right Shoulder to Top. They both meet up together on the same Plane Angle so that the Right Shoulder can then take the Hands down that same Plane briefly in Start Down. Its this ability of the Right Shoulder to take the Hands directly down plane that makes these plane angles these TSP's so effective and uncompensated.
It is not all that Steep really . Especially if you locate ONE of the flatter Turned Shoulder Planes. (Gotta think about that a little I know. There is a range of available TSP planes that the Hands and Right Shoulder can locate , meet up on, like "Strangers in the Night" ). The one you locate with a "FLAT turn back of the Right Shoulder" in Startup is going to be amongst the flattest but its not all that flat per say either. One of Brian Gay's preferred swing thoughts apparently. The combo of Flat Back and Downplane forming the Standard Shoulder Turn , 10-13-A which Homer recommended for both of the two Basic Patterns , 12-1 and 12-2.
As an aside though some famous golfers are regarded as having flat swings and some are regarded as having upright swings......you can find in sequenced photos that they end up on or real close to a TSP Angle in Startdown. Hogan and Nicklaus for instance, although not on the same one if you know what I mean. Jack obviously had some business to do to get down there from where he was at End but... that he did. Hogan could sometimes even appear slightly under the TSP, under being far better than over Id imagine. See the photos below.....maybe the camera being 3/4 to Mr Hogan makes him seem under a TSP when he isnt? From DTL he would appear closer to it I believe. One thing is for sure he's not pointing the butt end at the ball at that moment but he will when he gets down to his lower plane.
I dunno. Yoda how big of a mess am I making here? How do you best describe the divergent vectors of the "flat back" of the Right Shoulder with the " UP" of Back , In and Up for the Hands and how it all nets out with the Hands on plane? Dang its like rubbing your stomach and patting your head at the same time. Cant be done Pivot to Hands which would see a Flat Back of the Shoulders take the Hands flat back too.......
I have a feeling that we're often misinterpretating the various planes involved because we wrongly assume that the plane line equals the target line. "Turning left" can simply mean striking the ball a good while before low point, when the club is moving down, forward and out. And it takes an open plane line to produce a divot that goes down the target line.
When I do air swings in front of the mirror with a wedge, I swing from TSP to TSP if I aim to the right of the mirror. If I aim straight at the mirror I look steep & high in the back swing and really flatt in the follow thru. And the hands start turning left before the ball is struck. I am pretty sure that I do the same on most strokes when I play too. But perhaps not with the driver.
Some golfers have a Finish that can make you think they never re planed the club after Follow Through but photos often tell a different story. Mr Palmer for example or Moe even. The photos below are from an impromptu demonstration Moe did at the 1984 Canadian Open hosted by Glenn Abbey G.C. A place from which I have some very fond memories. See that bunker deep in the distance at the end of the range? Yoda's been there.
Please get me to the plane that meets these requirements at impact. Rffw on plane, rf on plane, left fw, left wrist level, tracing??
I have been under the impression that the alignments at impact are( SHOULD BE) elbow plane. Am I wrong?
This topic needs a "starting alignment" . Impact is the ONLY critical alignment, whatever anyone "agrees" it is/should be. How the golfer gets to and from impact alignment is important but not as critical.
The Bear
Last edited by HungryBear : 12-13-2010 at 08:26 AM.
TSP or EP at impact is a matter of choise I believe.
I believe Daryl prefers and uses TSP for impact as well. Moe Norman was TSP. But most top golfers today seem to be on EP.
I do not understand how to get to impact with the right forearm on plane and the left wrist level and tracing(with #3 pp)??
Is impact fix a TSP setup? Or an EP setup? Does the shaft lie on a plane through your shoulder at impact? or your elbow? Can you do this without a ZERO accumulator #3?? If it can be done please show the alignments required to get there because I can not visualize them? Thanks.
I would "think" the "exit plane" would depend on the alignment and physics that procede it? The impact fix would "seem" to be an alignment that everyone can identify with precision. Then follow through alignments are , dependent on hinge action, fairly well defined alignments. Then there is physics that take you beyond followthrough and then manipulation takes over????
O.B.Left- I am very excited about your "EXIT" thread. There is an "humungus" pile of material that can be considered. You will probably have to tell me to SHUT UP, so, at your discretion!
The Bear
Last edited by HungryBear : 12-13-2010 at 11:35 AM.
Bear, perhaps your problem relates to the definition of Elbow Plane. There is to my knowledge only one Elbow Plane which is defined as the point where the Right Elbow would touch the body. Plane and simple. However it is possible to get the Right Forearm on a Plane, a Shaft Plane, which is higher than the Elbow Plane at Address or Impact. Homer liked this bit of business as it lent itself to the possibility of zero shift. Given his strong preference for a TSP Angle in Startdown , Zero shift would ideally be started and finished on a TSP with the Right Forearm on this Plane as well at Fix and Impact.
That being said its a bit "ungolf like" if you will. And so we are left to what I believe to be the practical ideal......what I term "minimal shift". The Right Forearm lies on a Shaft Plane which is above Elbow Plane but below TSP at Address with the TSP you locate being the flattest you can comfortably locate ......which isnt all that flat really. "Flat Back" turn of the Right Shoulder. From a DTL view you are minimizing the degrees of shift necessary be it a Single or Double or Triple shift.
Bear, If you are trying to drop to a lower Elbow Plane and not getting there.......try something higher but with the Right Forearm on that Plane. Minimize your Shift in terms of degrees from DTL or take out a shift even. Go Single Shift instead of Double. The level Left Wrist at Address , the on Plane Right Forearm ....work on your Arm Set at Address. Its structure is sturdy. Hit little chips and pitches with just your RFFW attached to the club, you'll feel its structure which you can use Swinging or Hitting. The problem most people have with the Arm Set is that their Left Wrist is not Level at Address. Simply put, to raise your Right Forearm to the Shaft Plane merely Level your Left Wrist. There is often some stiffness or built in #2 Angle at the Left Wrist which is inhibiting the correct Arm Set.
Bear, perhaps your problem relates to the definition of Elbow Plane. There is to my knowledge only one Elbow Plane which is defined as the point where the Right Elbow would touch the body. Plane and simple. However it is possible to get the Right Forearm on a Plane, a Shaft Plane, which is higher than the Elbow Plane at Address or Impact. Homer liked this bit of business as it lent itself to the possibility of zero shift. Given his strong preference for a TSP Angle in Startdown , Zero shift would ideally be started and finished on a TSP with the Right Forearm on this Plane as well at Fix and Impact.
That being said its a bit "ungolf like" if you will. And so we are left to what I believe to be the practical ideal......what I term "minimal shift". The Right Forearm lies on a Shaft Plane which is above Elbow Plane but below TSP at Address with the TSP you locate being the flattest you can comfortably locate ......which isnt all that flat really. "Flat Back" turn of the Right Shoulder. From a DTL view you are minimizing the degrees of shift necessary be it a Single or Double or Triple shift.
Bear, If you are trying to drop to a lower Elbow Plane and not getting there.......try something higher but with the Right Forearm on that Plane. Minimize your Shift in terms of degrees from DTL or take out a shift even. Go Single Shift instead of Double. The level Left Wrist at Address , the on Plane Right Forearm ....work on your Arm Set at Address. Its structure is sturdy. Hit little chips and pitches with just your RFFW attached to the club, you'll feel its structure which you can use Swinging or Hitting. The problem most people have with the Arm Set is that their Left Wrist is not Level at Address. Simply put, to raise your Right Forearm to the Shaft Plane merely Level your Left Wrist. There is often some stiffness or built in #2 Angle at the Left Wrist which is inhibiting the correct Arm Set.
Thanks O.B.
The problem , as I see it, is the talk about planes is almost always relating Basic Plane's , 7-6 but we are talking about the down swing plane(s) 7-23, delivery path. As I see it, 7-23 paragraph 3 (6th edit.) must be read with care. It says, at least to me, that if you have accumulators #2 and #3 then you have elbow plane to the extent they are used.
It isn't hard for me to get there but I am sure that will stand the hair up on the back of a lot of necks. Shouldn't have said that but it is likely true.??
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