Is there a fundamental difference between a stroke made with an iron vs one with a wood?
My motivation for asking this question is that I have the wood/hybrid game of a solid single digit handicapper. And the iron game of a nervous 25 handicapper.
What struck me a few weeks back was TV commentary at The Players that David Toms was a "sweeper" of the ball. Is that comment based on anything real/demonstrable or just convenient colour commentary? I have always seen myself as a "sweeper" - rarely break a tee, generally shallow divots, etc. I'd like to explore if this characterization is legitimate or if I am simply rationalizing what is really a faulty pattern or execution with my irons.
I think that there is ideally what Homer termed a "Sameness" amongst wood and iron swings , amongst all swings really , speaking very generally. The differences primarily attributable to the relative lever length and corresponding changes to ball location vis a vis low point. That said iron swings are typically a little shorter and there are specialty shots or procedures typical for some clubs more than others. Teeing a ball in front of low point for a long ball or holding off a little punched approach for instance. Machine adjustments to your bread and butter , everyday , basic motion.
The answers to your questions can be explained nicely via the Geometry of the Circle. Balls played further back of low point will tend to have a steeper Angle of Attack. Homer defined Snap , Random Sweep and Full Sweep Release types which also effect the Angle of Attack when employed intentionally or otherwise. Your shallow angle of attack is without doubt a (geometric) result of your procedure.
Shorter levers switch ends easier than long ones. A short iron will square up quicker , easer than a long iron. Manufacturers adjust for this fact by designing shorter clubs to sit square further back of low point , what Homer termed "hooked face". With their built in back of low point address position and the associated steeper Angle of Attack, shorter irons really like to be hit down on. Some current drivers are designed to square up for balls played forward of low point ....."slice face" I guess you could call it. With a designed in negative Angle of Attack if thats the right terminology. These "straight away" positions are unique to each manufacturer or each model of club and can only be determined through trial and error.
A player using the Aiming Point Procedure can move his Aiming Point back and forward along the Arc of Approach to alter the manner in which his club switches ends. YOu can aim at a point several inches prior to contact along the Arc to trick yourself into squaring the face of a driver up faster, for instance.
There's a lot that can go into the geometry of a shot but put plainly an iron is designed to be played back of low point and therefor its arc or clubhead path is still Down and Out to low point through and after Imact. Disparity between Path and FAce determining ball curvature. But this is a learned thing and contrary to the "seems as if" false logic of Steering the iron's Clubhead towards the hole through Impact ......which'll give you those divots that point left of the hole, if you make a divot.
Sorta difficult to answer because your interpretation of 'fundamental difference' may be different from mine. I do think there are fundamental differences..but again, that's my interpretation of what a 'fundamental difference' is.
We hit down with irons for the most part. Perhaps if you're hitting a 2-iron teed up pretty high you can hit upwards on the ball and strike it well. But, that's very rare. So with irons...we hit the ball first and continue to have the clubhead go down further until it reaches the low point. In essence, with irons we want the ball *behind* the low point...pretty much always (there's always an exception to the rule, but I wouldn't worry about it much).
With the driver, because it's teed up, we can hit down, hit up or hit 'flat.' In fact, I think with the modern titanium driver...because the hot spot is up so high on the club compared to the old persimmon and metal drivers...we probably shouldn't hit much more than -2* down or it starts to become counterproductive and hard to gain consistency. I think hitting up on the ball isn't easy to do time after time either. So, 'somewhere around flat' is probably a decent rule of thumb to live by. The PGA Tour average is -1.3* with the driver, so that is 'somewhere around flat.'
So with that, the ball position with the driver can be behind the low point, in front of the low point or right at the low point.
Typically the driver backswing will be longer than say a 7-iron swing. There are some other tendencies as well.
does anyone know if lynns dvd is a must have, Thank you
There are other options. You can view all his free videos (several times). You can read the book 5-10 times and all the threads in the forum. You can book a lesson with an AI or Yoda himself. But the dvd would also help.
My “thinking” mind gets the geometry of the ball played back of low point (up plane). My “feeling” or intuitive mind has a different image.
If you can imagine the “ball on a string” analogy being whirled in a perfect orbit. Once the orbit is adjusted (tilted and moved) such that it intersects with a ball lying on the ground - like an iron shot - the perfect orbit is suddenly and violently destroyed. On paper, sure you can draw a perfect geometry. But in the real world does not the ground interfere, especially on hardpan or firm ground? So my “feeling” mind does not want to have the clubhead orbit collide with the ground. Even if this feeling is misguided on many levels (I figure maintaining the proper geometry is most crucial for the small number of milliseconds between impact and separation, not after the ball is long gone) it nonetheless is etched in my subconscious
Furthermore, I perceive an iron shot as having to be much more exacting. Contact the ground just before the ball and the shot is miserable and costly. The same degree of poor execution on a wood will result in an off-centre contact but likely a less penal result, even for woods played off the ground. Again, my “feeling” mind does not want the clubhead to collide with the ground first, so there is perhaps a tendency to subconsciously gravitate to thin contact – at least the outcome is more palatable.
This post has touched on the mental side though my problems (I sort of see my iron problems as “Yips”). Any comments on how to figuratively wipe the slate clean and re-program? I’ve got to admit, I’m slowly starting to panic!!!
My “thinking” mind gets the geometry of the ball played back of low point (up plane). My “feeling” or intuitive mind has a different image.
If you can imagine the “ball on a string” analogy being whirled in a perfect orbit. Once the orbit is adjusted (tilted and moved) such that it intersects with a ball lying on the ground - like an iron shot - the perfect orbit is suddenly and violently destroyed. On paper, sure you can draw a perfect geometry. But in the real world does not the ground interfere, especially on hardpan or firm ground? So my “feeling” mind does not want to have the clubhead orbit collide with the ground. Even if this feeling is misguided on many levels (I figure maintaining the proper geometry is most crucial for the small number of milliseconds between impact and separation, not after the ball is long gone) it nonetheless is etched in my subconscious
Furthermore, I perceive an iron shot as having to be much more exacting. Contact the ground just before the ball and the shot is miserable and costly. The same degree of poor execution on a wood will result in an off-centre contact but likely a less penal result, even for woods played off the ground. Again, my “feeling” mind does not want the clubhead to collide with the ground first, so there is perhaps a tendency to subconsciously gravitate to thin contact – at least the outcome is more palatable.
This post has touched on the mental side though my problems (I sort of see my iron problems as “Yips”). Any comments on how to figuratively wipe the slate clean and re-program? I’ve got to admit, I’m slowly starting to panic!!!
You know how I mentioned the "hooked face" nature of irons? Progressively more hooked faced as they get shorter given that they are designed to be played further and further back of low point. Well if you address them up near low point , with a face rotated open to square it to the line you have effectively added loft to the club AND removed a lot of the DOWN in the Angle of Attack. You are set up for a clean pick off and a ball that will fly higher and shorter than normal. As well your clean pick off will in fact be more exacting , demand more precision than a ball played further back at its "straight away" position. Hitting down on an iron makes the contact easier to replicate , its a luxury (less) available to us for long irons say. You can get this feeling of "covering" the ball, trapping it , squishing it ..... it'll will seem like you are trying to squish the ball against the ground (which wont really happen given loft).
One way to practice this is to put a golf magazine a few inches prior to the ball . Trying to hit the ball without striking the magazine first will encourage you to hit down on the ball. Keep working on getting the ball further back in your stance with the shorter irons (ideally back to their "straight away position) and keep sneaking the magazine in closer and closer to the ball. You will have to employ "Grip Rotation" see 7-2 as you move the ball back. As you move your Hands back along the ARc your Left Hand should turn accordingly (it doesnt stay pointed at the target or where ever, it points more and more to the right progressively as you move the ball and Hands further back in your stance). You will need to Rotate the Grip by opening your hands and rotating , spinning the club counter clockwise to square the face to the target line. More and more Rotation as you move the ball further back. This will combination of a square face and down and OUT to Low Point clubhead path will promote, create a draw shot. But not a big draw though as the steeper Inclined Plane of the shorter irons reduces the Divergence between Path and Face and the increased loft and Angle of Attack create more backspin than "side spin" so to speak. In reality its really what Homer called "tilted back spin" rather than "side spin" and backspin. YOu cant spin a ball along two axis at the same time. With the shorter irons there's less tilt to the axis so you dont really need to fear the draw spin tendency too much, but it is there. Huge draws suggest more Divergence than planned for.
This is the recipe for "nuking" a mid or short iron I believe , muscular force helps but this is the geometry being employed. I lose about 10 yards or so with a sand wedge when I play up in my stance.
As far as your concerns about lowering your clubhead into the dirt prior to contact , research Impact Fix. Imagine the divot as something that is a product of the manner in which you set up , not something you go down and after with your swing. Its a "machine adjustment" set according to the ball position. A product of the relationship between the length of your Radius and the distance from the Center of the Radius to the Ground.
Like the ball on a string idea you mention , imagine the Left Arm as a string extending from your Left Shoulder to your Hands. With the string stretched out so its taught (Extensor Action) and your Left Wrist held Level and your Hands and Arms in their desired Impact alignments YOU CAN SET YOUR LEFT SHOULDER ( THE CENTER OF THE RADIUS) IN ITS IDEAL IMPACT POSITION with the Radius of your Arm Swing precisely measured, set for perfect contact. This Impact Fix procedure will ripple through your entire body: waist bend, knee flex , the on plane right Forearm, the location of your head, your gaze at the ball, looking straight out of your eyes rather than down your cheeks , square eye line etc etc. If you return to impact in the same manner blammo. You get the divot, the down , the out , the circular orbit etc.
As an aside chipping yips I believe are often a result of having the ball positioned too far up in the stance. Your body sways over try to get ahead of the ball , a subconscious compensation for the ball being in the wrong place. Its a weird business, as if your brain knows something your conscious mind doesnt (that the ball needs to be hit down on). Never thought about it for longer iron shots but .......it wouldnt surprise me.
Hard pan? Move the ball up for a cleaner pick off if you must ....if you're hitting off a cart path say. But it'll demand more precision and will fly higher and shorter.
Seve used to hit flop shots with his 2 iron for fun. He'd move the ball up near low point , lay the blade wide open, swing a little flatter to take out some of the Down etc. Try it out. They fly to the right, short , high , fade and take a huge sharp bounce to the right on landing....... similar to what a hacker gets when he doesnt want it. Both employ a similar methodology. One intentionally, one not. One set of physics and geometry, one ball response.
You know how I mentioned the "hooked face" nature of irons? Progressively more hooked faced as they get shorter given that they are designed to be played further and further back of low point. Well if you address them up near low point , with a face rotated open to square it to the line you have effectively added loft to the club AND removed a lot of the DOWN in the Angle of Attack. You are set up for a clean pick off and a ball that will fly higher and shorter than normal. As well your clean pick off will in fact be more exacting , demand more precision than a ball played further back at its "straight away" position. Hitting down on an iron makes the contact easier to replicate , its a luxury (less) available to us for long irons say. You can get this feeling of "covering" the ball, trapping it , squishing it ..... it'll will seem like you are trying to squish the ball against the ground (which wont really happen given loft).
One way to practice this is to put a golf magazine a few inches prior to the ball . Trying to hit the ball without striking the magazine first will encourage you to hit down on the ball. Keep working on getting the ball further back in your stance with the shorter irons (ideally back to their "straight away position) and keep sneaking the magazine in closer and closer to the ball. You will have to employ "Grip Rotation" see 7-2 as you move the ball back. As you move your Hands back along the ARc your Left Hand should turn accordingly (it doesnt stay pointed at the target or where ever, it points more and more to the right progressively as you move the ball and Hands further back in your stance). You will need to Rotate the Grip by opening your hands and rotating , spinning the club counter clockwise to square the face to the target line. More and more Rotation as you move the ball further back. This will combination of a square face and down and OUT to Low Point clubhead path will promote, create a draw shot. But not a big draw though as the steeper Inclined Plane of the shorter irons reduces the Divergence between Path and Face and the increased loft and Angle of Attack create more backspin than "side spin" so to speak. In reality its really what Homer called "tilted back spin" rather than "side spin" and backspin. YOu cant spin a ball along two axis at the same time. With the shorter irons there's less tilt to the axis so you dont really need to fear the draw spin tendency too much, but it is there. Huge draws suggest more Divergence than planned for.
This is the recipe for "nuking" a mid or short iron I believe , muscular force helps but this is the geometry being employed. I lose about 10 yards or so with a sand wedge when I play up in my stance.
As far as your concerns about lowering your clubhead into the dirt prior to contact , research Impact Fix. Imagine the divot as something that is a product of the manner in which you set up , not something you go down and after with your swing. Its a "machine adjustment" set according to the ball position. A product of the relationship between the length of your Radius and the distance from the Center of the Radius to the Ground.
Like the ball on a string idea you mention , imagine the Left Arm as a string extending from your Left Shoulder to your Hands. With the string stretched out so its taught (Extensor Action) and your Left Wrist held Level and your Hands and Arms in their desired Impact alignments YOU CAN SET YOUR LEFT SHOULDER ( THE CENTER OF THE RADIUS) IN ITS IDEAL IMPACT POSITION with the Radius of your Arm Swing precisely measured, set for perfect contact. This Impact Fix procedure will ripple through your entire body: waist bend, knee flex , the on plane right Forearm, the location of your head, your gaze at the ball, looking straight out of your eyes rather than down your cheeks , square eye line etc etc. If you return to impact in the same manner blammo. You get the divot, the down , the out , the circular orbit etc.
As an aside chipping yips I believe are often a result of having the ball positioned too far up in the stance. Your body sways over try to get ahead of the ball , a subconscious compensation for the ball being in the wrong place. Its a weird business, as if your brain knows something your conscious mind doesnt (that the ball needs to be hit down on). Never thought about it for longer iron shots but .......it wouldnt surprise me.
Hard pan? Move the ball up for a cleaner pick off if you must ....if you're hitting off a cart path say. But it'll demand more precision and will fly higher and shorter.
Seve used to hit flop shots with his 2 iron for fun. He'd move the ball up near low point , lay the blade wide open, swing a little flatter to take out some of the Down etc. Try it out. They fly to the right, short , high , fade and take a huge sharp bounce to the right on landing....... similar to what a hacker gets when he doesnt want it. Both employ a similar methodology. One intentionally, one not. One set of physics and geometry, one ball response.
I guess no one is immune.....from mikeweir.com June 1/11, Mike's blog
"I think it's safe to say that my elbow injury caused me to develop some bad habits and one of those was my fear of going down after the ball. I was sort of anticipating the pain that might occur if I hit the ground and as a result, I started to swing with almost a reverse C, with my weight moving backwards instead of into the ball. I just did this gradually and over time, it just got worse and worse."
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